Eratosphere Forums - Metrical Poetry, Free Verse, Fiction, Art, Critique, Discussions Able Muse - a review of poetry, prose and art

Forum Left Top

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Unread 10-18-2020, 03:49 AM
Jim Hayes Jim Hayes is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Kilkenny, Kilkenny, Ireland
Posts: 4,945
Default Rondeau D’Agneau

Rondeau D’Agneau

Revision

For spite, it seemed, where Mary went
her lamb would go—with malintent.
Although its fleece was white as snow
it was a cloak put on for show.
This lamb was far from innocent.

For all its charm, it was hell bent
on making ribald merriment
and made sheep’s eyes at Mary’s beau.
For spite, it seemed.

And then, when it would not relent
Mary brooked no argument
from such a brazen so-and-so.

She braised a l’ail jarret d’agneau
with fine Bordeaux as complement.
For spite it seemed.




For spite it seemed, where Mary went
her lamb went—not with good intent.
Although its fleece was white as snow
it was a cloak put on for show.
The lamb was not so innocent.

For all its charm, its time was spent
in salacious merriment—
it made sheep’s eyes at Mary’s beau.
For spite it seemed.

And then, when it would not relent
Mary brooked no argument
from such a forward, brazen ewe.

She braised a l’ail Jarrett D’Agneau
and sipped a rare Moulin-a-vent.
For spite it seemed.

Last edited by Jim Hayes; 10-20-2020 at 03:01 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Unread 10-18-2020, 06:31 AM
Orwn Acra's Avatar
Orwn Acra Orwn Acra is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Alexandria, Egypt
Posts: 2,101
Default

Successful doggerel, in that it herded the sheep to put me to sleep.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Unread 10-18-2020, 06:37 AM
Andrew Mandelbaum's Avatar
Andrew Mandelbaum Andrew Mandelbaum is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Portland Maine
Posts: 3,515
Default

As this poem is preceded by its own commentary on the other thread I imagine you want a readers take on the sum of the parts. The work seems to grow out from the author's confusion about what exactly it is that people respect about Nemo's work and presence in the met forum. For the most part it is his talent as an editor. He has a gift for, way more often than not, meeting the poem where it is and offering careful edits that both honor the poets own biome and make the piece recognizably better. And he writes some pretty fine work himself. This is a case of leadership through recognition and respect. There are some poetics and/or rhetorical directions he bristles at. That isn't a faction, it is just another sign of taking the poem seriously enough to think it matters if it is full of shit. Or simply an honest divide on matters of taste.

Or maybe you take it personally if you front for something stupid or annoying and somebody witty comes along and looks your hobby horse
in the mouth. If so, I suppose you will find this crit focusing more on your subject than your craft ill-mannered. Oh well.

I read through plenty of the old threads when I came here years ago. Plenty of you old boys seemed like schmucks to be honest. Maybe you were not one of them. I don't remember you. But I suspect Nemo pointed out some bullshit and people who felt the same way appreciated the candor. Maybe this is some ode to a battle of lost schmuckery that I don't have the gory details on. I am sure it was brave and fascinating stuff. If this this is a first of a renewed presence on the crit boards it will be interested to see what you have of depth when you get to something important enough to write a poem about. If this is a one off drive by, lay your petals on the steps of the mausoleum and run along. A rarely visited section of a poetry website is worth a casually amusing post or two in a chat thread but this? Nope. Dumb.

Last edited by Andrew Mandelbaum; 10-18-2020 at 06:46 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Unread 10-18-2020, 06:51 AM
Jayne Osborn's Avatar
Jayne Osborn Jayne Osborn is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Middle England
Posts: 6,263
Default

This is a board for critiquing a poem, Andrew, not for continuing a lengthy discussion which has taken place on General Talk.
Your praise for Nemo is admirable, but it has nothing to do with Jim's poem.

Let's stick to commenting on the post, and stop the tiresome sniping.

Jayne
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Unread 10-18-2020, 06:55 AM
Jim Hayes Jim Hayes is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Kilkenny, Kilkenny, Ireland
Posts: 4,945
Default

Thank you Orwn.

I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about Andrew but thank you anyway

Last edited by Jim Hayes; 10-18-2020 at 07:31 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Unread 10-18-2020, 08:45 AM
W T Clark W T Clark is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: England
Posts: 230
Default

Hello Jim Hayes

(moving away from the silly interclique politics for a moment)


I don't think that the refrain "For spite it seemed" is really working. "For spite it seemed" is already quite an archaic way of saying things, in that it does not represent the current age's rhetoric heightened to some extent (as one recent definition of "poetic" language states). Similarly, it feels quite fragmentary. One would prefer it to be attached at least to the poem's previous sentences. With these weirdly contrived and semi-fragmentary qualities, I think you have picked the wrong refrain.

A secondary problem with this is the glut of "ent" rhymes. Rhyming must be handled in a way that heightens the poem but does not interfere (does the opposite in fact) with the poem's — for lack of a better word — message. You have internal and external rhymes based on the "ent" sound, and for me it comes as over kill. I'd rather you cut back on the sonics and have a little more progression, consider describing actions that are more eventful than just "making eyes", or colouring those current actions with some more shocking adjectives: the presentation is too restrained.

Hope this helps.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Unread 10-18-2020, 09:11 AM
Jim Hayes Jim Hayes is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Kilkenny, Kilkenny, Ireland
Posts: 4,945
Default

Hi Cameron, I’m not sure if you’re familiar with the form and I’m not saying this in defence of any deficiencies it may contain in my handling of it but the rhyme scheme as laid out is a requirement not withstanding that you might prefer an alternative to ‘ent’ however, none come readily, at least to my mind that retains the sense of what I want to convey,
‘For spite it seemed’ is a common form of expression in my local vernacular, and accepting that it may seem archaic and lack some street cred to some ears, I really don’t see any good reason to change it particularly as it has a retrospective nuance in the final repetend.
Many thanks for your close read and comments, of course they help,
Jim
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Unread 10-18-2020, 11:27 AM
Susan McLean Susan McLean is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Iowa City, IA, USA
Posts: 8,685
Default

Jim, on the whole, I think the rondeau is well done, but there are a few spots where the meter or rhyme could be improved. In S2L2, it is hard for the reader to know that you expect "in" to be stressed. I would suggest making the meter clearer. One possibility for that line would be "in mischief of a lurid [or carnal] bent." To my ear "ewe" does not rhyme well with your "-ow" rhymes. In S3L3, you could use something like "from such a brazen ewe. Oh no." In S4L1 you need the whole phrase "ŕ l'ail" to be italicized and have the accent. I also don't think your rhyme on Moulin-a-vent works if you give it the French pronunciation, as I assume you would after the French name for the leg of lamb dish. May I suggest something like "with fine Bordeaux as complement"?

Susan
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Unread 10-18-2020, 11:36 AM
W T Clark W T Clark is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: England
Posts: 230
Default

Hello Jim


Point taken about the refrain. I still naturally expect (for some reason) for it not to be a complete sentence, so maybe you should use ellipsis? I do know the sect rhyme scheme for a rondeau but I do think the "ent" rhymes are overdone. There are three ("went" and "went" being perfect rhymes) in the first two lines, so to my ear at least it is a little too loud. I wonder if you could use half rhymes? are more multi-syllabic choices?
Thanks for correcting me, it is always appreciated!

Hope this helps.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Unread 10-18-2020, 02:33 PM
Yves S L Yves S L is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: London
Posts: 93
Default

Hello Jim,

I have a feeling with the "para Nemo" that I am missing a lot of context, so the remaining comments have an asterisk attached, since I am not well able to narrow down your intentions well enough (you could just be messing about).

So the spin you have chosen to put on "Mary had a little lamb" is inter-species sex, and the ensuing emotional entanglements. Taking this as a humorous, light piece, then the main issue is that the punchline is telegraphed by the end of the second stanza.

I think Susan has covered the technical nits.

Yeah!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Forum Right Top
Forum Left Bottom Forum Right Bottom
 
Right Left
Member Login
Forgot password?
Forum LeftForum Right


Forum Statistics:
Forum Members: 8,112
Total Threads: 20,288
Total Posts: 258,601
There are 272 users
currently browsing forums.
Forum LeftForum Right


Forum Sponsor:
Donate & Support Able Muse / Eratosphere
Forum LeftForum Right
Right Right
Right Bottom Left Right Bottom Right

Hosted by ApplauZ Online